Welcome to the Gum Disease Blog! We created this running Blog in 2007 to have an open forum for discussing Periogen®, the tartar dissolver, as well as home dental care in general. As more people become enlightened to the magic that is Periogen®, a new era is emerging where people will manage their own oral health, rather than living helplessly every day in dread of some future dental appointment, scheduled or not. Seek the assistance of dental professionals with the confidence that your home care regimen includes dissolving tartar.
There are many questions and answers here. Feel free to post your questions, and one of us will give you the answers.
You are also encouraged to share your dental experiences here.
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Tags: dissolve tartar, gum disease, oral health, Periogen
It seems like there’s some pretty contradictory claims being made now. On this other web site
http://www.dentalcompare.com/Blogs/ViewEntry.aspx?entryid=3503
it’s claimed that Periogen was ineffective because the patient probably just swished it around without actually getting it into the gumline. Now you’re saying that Periogen is effective even without a waterpik, just by swishing it around. These new claims are hard to swallow, given the documented cases of previous patients that had no improvement.
Hi Howard,
Glad you brought that up; that post by Dr. Kwan on another Blog comes up frequently during web searches.
The patient Dr. Kwan was referring to was examined by him in December 2006, long before we discovered that supra-gingival (above the gum-line) tartar was affected by Periogen use. At the time, we were only studying sub-gingival (below the gum-line) tartar dissolution.
He referred to this walk-in patient at the time as a “phobe” that wouldn’t allow a proper examination. He had just received his Periodontal Starter Kits from us, so he gave her one in lieu of standard treatment. When she returned two months later, her gums looked good but apparently the radiographs showed no improvement in sub-gingival tartar accumulations – a typical sign to us of irrigator non-compliance.
The next patient he gave Periogen to in early 2007 was a 100% success. There is a video of this on youtube that he made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wXaL-PkLqk
In both cases, supra-gingival tartar dissolution wasn’t even considered, so Periogen could very well have worked perfectly – we will never know.
I consider Dr. Kwan to be perhaps the finest periodontist in the nation and quite possibly the world, as he avoids subjecting patients to the typical gruesome surgeries that his peers use, and instead employs a microscopic periodontal endoscope to detect periodontal defects and remove sub-gingival tartar. Having said all those niceties, don’t expect any Periogen fans to emerge from the ranks of periodontists anytime soon.
Hi, greetings from Germany.
After extensive search on the web and reading most of the postings here I decided to order the 3-pack.
I´ll get the waterpik localy because of the different voltage… at about double of your price :-(
I have deep pockets at several locations and the scrapings never did help for a long time. I really don´t look forward to the next session.
So I decided to give Periogen a try.
I´ll post when it arrives and how much customs and tax added to the cost.
Hi, greetings from Germany
I placed my order last week and I am glad to let you know that it arrived safely today. For whatever reason customs was not interested in it… the better.
I´ll try the periogen along with a WP 100E. I do have a few deep pockets and really dislike getting the deep cleaning done every so often. Its painful and expensive.
Could you elaborate on the effects of peroxide and what exact kind to use?
Sincerely
Mike
We get many questions about what can be done to increase Periogen effectiveness. Hydrogen Peroxide has been an established dental anti-microbial for time immemorial. Since Periogen has little to no anti-microbial qualities, Hydrogen Peroxide seems like a good match with Periogen to unlock plaque and tartar and kill microbes at the same time. The problem with Hydrogen Peroxide is that it is often not recommended for use beyond 30-60 days.
A better long-term partner for Periogen would be a brand-name anti-microbial mouth rinse; take your pick.
Is there a particular brand of anti-microbial mouthwash you recommend
and how would it be used with Periogen? Should it be mixed with the
Periogen in the waterpik or used separately before OR after the
Periogen application? If it’s mixed in the Waterpik, how much should
be used with the Periogen?
Thanks for the response, that open question really needed to be addressed.
Something else that’s been nagging at me – you say that fluoride is included to guarantee a source of ions. The concentration seems to be rather specific. Have you been testing using purified, de-ionized water? Or just “plain tap water”? Since the composition of tap water varies quite a bit from locality to locality, and even home to home due to mineral buildup in pipes, pipe composition, etc., it seems like you’re leaving too much to chance, in terms of the actual reactions that will occur in real world usage. What about communities with fluoridated water, water with high chlorine content, etc. – it seems that other reactions may occur preferentially, using up all the Periogen components and so nullifying its effect.
Hi Kim,
The following is what we feel is the best integration of Periogen and anti-microbials:
Brush with your favorite toothpaste; make sure to get behind rear molars and the rear of incisors (lower front teeth).
Rinse with an anti-microbial mouthwash. Name-brands that claim anti-microbial qualities are FDA equivalents, so pick your favorite flavor. This will kill all microbes, good and bad, in your mouth.
Irrigate with a water and Periogen solution to ensure that the killed microbes are not able to calcify into plaque and tartar formations.
Try not to rinse or eat anything for 20 minutes after Periogen application in order to give Periogen time to work against the plaque and tartar.
Hi Howard,
Truly great questions.
With all of our in-vitro (test tube) studies, Periogen is paired with distilled water. In these tests, tartar dissolves readily. All of our in-vivo (in the mouth) studies are performed with whatever local tap water is available. Although Periogen effectiveness varies from person to person, with tartar dissolution occurring in as little as ten days to as many as ninety days, it always works in the end. Your question regarding local water quality may be an important variable that we have yet to quantify.
OK, thanks for that.
Just as an aside, I’m on my second bottle now. Had to discard the first bottle half-way thru because it all solidified, I must have gotten it wet at some point. It’s pretty important to keep it dry and sealed tight, bathrooms can get pretty humid…
Your website says “PATENT PENDING” On what date was the patent applied for and what is/are the associated patent application reference numbers?
I’ve been using your product for the last six months because I was told that I had some bone loss and some 5 and 6 pockets and one 7. They told me then that I would need gum surgary. Wish me luck.
Mary
Hi
I been using your product for the past 6 months twice a day. I was told that I would need gum sugery for some bone loss I have in one tooth. Also, scaling and root planning for some 6 and 5 pockets and one 7. I will let you know what happens at the dentist office.
thanks
Mary
Wow whats great informative discussion are made here. It is first time that i am make a post on the this site. I am glad to see lots of friend here.
Thank you so much friends.
Do you recommend flossing in addition to Periogen (I just got started and am using it with the waterpick)? I have 3 – 6mm pockets Also, is Listerine a good anti-microbial mouthwash? I assume we shouldn’t rinse with mouthwash after (at least immediately after) the periogen application.
Hi Shawn,
Based on the latest independent research, which we agree with, it is best to brush with your favorite toothpaste for the standard two minutes, then swish with an antimicrobial for one minute (Listerine is a fine antimicrobial), then irrigate with Periogen for two minutes with a Waterpik Ultra.
Flossing is a good practice at other times during the day to remove food particles from between your teeth.
Thanks for this useful post. Here is some additional information about the “genetics” of this condition that was written by our Genetic Counselor and other genetic professionals: http://www.accessdna.com/condition/Gum_Disease/174. Thanks, AccessDNA
So is there a patent pending on this product? Is it a difficult question to answer truthfully?
Your name, or that or periogen, or that of globaltonic appear to have no published patent nor published application. Nor is there any tartar reducing patent or published application from any entity within the last 20 years that bears any resemblance whatsoever to your product.
The total lack of response to the earlier enquiry could be viewed by some that the statement on the website is false and potentially misleading. In addition the positive moderation of other comments on the 10th and 28th of December and replying to one whilst suppressing my posting from the 4th December and failing to reply hardly inspires confidence in your claims.
Hi Martin,
Sorry I missed your previous post. I only suppress spam and a few “crazies.”
Here is the patent info:
Anti-calculus dental composition and methods for using same
USPTO Application #: 20080152602
Title: Anti-calculus dental composition and methods for using same
Hi,
I have a question… I brused my teeth,then I rinced with Listerine, and then I used the Periogen with Hydrogen Peroxide . After I did that gum and lip became numb. That was yesterday. It is just starting to settle down a little now.
M
Hi:
I am a relatively new Periogen user and am quite pleased.
The question I have is about the new taste in my mouth – usually most significant when I wake up in the morning.
Is this from the Periogen, the loss of some bacteria in my mouth, from the dissolving of formerly hard stuff in my mouth, or something else?
Thanks
Mary – thank you for your response. So it sounds like you don’t necessarily recommend flossing either before or right after the periogen application, but maybe at other time(s) during the day?
Shawn
Hey there,
So after a trip to the dentist and an estimate are $2200 for a deep cleaning every 3 months ive arrived here. I heard about perogen from a wikipedia article that sent me to a video that mentioned periogen and im hoping to make a last ditch effort before i give my dentist my paycheck for the next year or so. I ordered the starter kit and it should arrive tomorrow. Im not sure if i can post pictures but as it goes ill post a link to a picture from day one to the end of the starter kit and finally a revisit to the dentist. I really hope this works cuz being a college student is hard enough as it is. Id love any advice as to how to make this product work to its full potential and will be more then happy to talk to anyone as well from a first person consumer point of view. Thank you and dear god let this work lol
Hi Mario,
You sound like a perfect Periogen candidate. Just use the prescribed amount of Periogen, once or twice a day in your Waterpik Wp100 with the PikPocket tip provided (the one with the pointed rubber tip). Make sure you make good contact with the gum/tooth margin, especially on top of the periodontal pockets. Periogen will then penetrate down to 6-7 mm, and the tartar down below will dissolve in a matter of weeks. Tartar above the gum line may take a bit longer, but it will come off as well. You will know definitively that you have done the job at home when your next dental evaluation shows reduced pocket depth, indicating tartar dissolution and the end to periodontal infections.
Taking photos of dental tartar below the gum line is nearly impossible, but if you are skilled with a small mirror and a digital camera with a macro lens, you can record the dissolution of tartar above the gum line, such as on the rear of incisors.
You have come to the right place. Good Luck!
Hi Mary,
This will all pass, it is part of the healing process.
Hi Dick,
My personal experience with changes in taste (way back when) was actually an improvement in my breath. The anaerobic bacteria that Periogen is disrupting are really smelly. Periogen.com has a halitosis page that isolates the various smells that these individual microbial colonies aspirate. Fecal, urine and cabbage odors top the list.
After my first few months of Periogen use, friends and family began telling me how good my breath had become – they were apparently shy about telling how bad my breath was before!
Just keep an eye (or nose or taste) on any new flavors and smells to ensure that all is improving.
Hi Shawn,
Flossing and picking during the day are important to removing food debris that feed the monsters (anaerobic and aerobic bacteria). The Waterpik Ultra will blow away this debris during Periogen application; so no need to fuss with floss at the time of irrigating. If you like to floss, go for it, but the oral irrigating is the priority, so don’t skimp in this area.
Well went to the dentist last week and the 6mm pockets and 5mm pockets have gone done to 4mm. I have been using the product for 1/2 year. If I continue will the pockets continue to decrease?
thanks again
Mary
On your November 22 2009 post (Administrator) on this page you say “since periogen has little to no anti microbial qualities…..”
But on several posts located here,it completely contradicts that:
http://www.foodwork.com/pages/blog_backup.html
it is clearly stated (post 27,administrator)that periogen has “Strong
anti-microbial qualities,so infection diminishes immediately”
and here:(post number 44)”Periogen is anti-calculus (anti-tartar) and
anti-microbial.”
and here:(post number 109)”Periogen use kills anaerobic bacteria on contact and completely dissolves the tartar under your gums.”
Now that statement really bothers me.
If it ONLY kills bacteria it is not anti-microbial,it is correctly refered
as Anti-bacterial.
Anti-microbial is used when it kills more than just one type of
microorganism(s),like viruses and funguses,etc.
And this post here:(post number 159)”There is no need to use any of those other anti-microbials while using Periogen. Each application of Periogen kills 100% of the bacteria it comes in contact with along with several layers of tartar.”
Kills 100% of bacteria?
How can that be if it has “Little to NO anti-microbial qualities”?
Anti-microbial would include bacteria.Some anti-bacterial hand soaps are actually anti-microbial (they kill viruses too)even though they are
advertised as anti-bacterial.
And here too:(post number 161)”Periogen alone kills 100% of exposed
bacteria, so 110% doesn’t mean anything to me.”
So i would like your response to these total contradictions,as it doesent
seem like it would be very difficult to tell if periogen was anti-microbial
or not.Seems like basic testing would reveal that.”Beta” testing perhaps?
I have been reading post ,blogs and websites about periogen as well as all 167 posts at the above link for the past several hours.
I halfway expect this post to never see the light of day and be removed or not posted,even though the people that are involved with periogen seem to be good people,based on what i have researched.
Thanks.
Hi Sean,
During Periogen use, gram negative bacteria activity ceases, and this we have known for years. Infections end, pockets heal and close – all indications on strong anti-bacterial qualities – and we ran around thinking and commenting that Periogen “kills germs.”
Well, we got a call from a Temple University researcher in the summer of ’09 who stated that Periogen does not actually kill any bacteria; but instead disrupts their activity by inhibiting quorum-sensing – the ability various bacteria have of communicating and basically knowing what’s going on around them. Without quorum sensing, destructive bacteriological attacks are prevented from occurring.
I suppose that is still anti-microbial and anti-bacterial, but I have tried to clear that claim from all parts of the website until I can figure out how to properly define it.
I haven’t changed any previous Blog postings. I treat these like historical records and somehow modifying them seems deceptive.
Congratulations Mary! You might get another 1mm reduction with more casual Periogen use, but you have left the nasty world of periodontitis already!
Well finally got the thing today, i work for UPS but my intercom isnt working at home and my driver came in late last night so i will called it today. Took my first picture, just dunno where to host it, i figure photobucket will do but im not sure…not exactly a great facebook photo lol. I figure the best picture will be a simple look at my teeth with my gums exposed. I have massive swelling so as the infection dies out so should the swelling and the tingle i feel in my front lower jaw.
The starter kit is nice, the waterpik was cheaper on the site then at walgreens. The periogen is a powder that reminds me of alkaseltzer when u put it in water because it fizzes up. My mouth bleed alot but then again it always does when i brush or eat anything that requires a decent bite. Hopefully ill learn some habits now that i see how much it costs me not to. I also figure the bleeding means i hit the right spot. Stung a bit but again paying my dentist 3 months pay is gonna hurt 10 times worse.
Finally im also a nursing major and recently finished a microbiology course at local Pierce College in woodland hills. While that obviously doesnt make me an expert in the subject, the general idea i have about periogen is its a salt and flouride solution that breaks the bonds in the tarter; much like a laser breaks the bonds of the ink in tattoo removal; your bodys immune responce takes care of the elimination of the leftovers. Not so much an anti anything as simply a bond breaker. In the end its your own resident bacteria and immune response that kill off the bacteria that are at the root of the infections. Bacteria are simply much much harder to kill in a biofilm because of their immense number and the excess material in the way. Yummy ^_^
As a man without dental insurance, who suffers from extensive periodontal disease, I am quite happy I came across this site. While I do not expect miracles, I am hoping that Periogen will afford me some extra time to weigh my surgical options, and save for the inevitable slew of extractions I will likely need.
I do have a question, though. How often is too often when it comes to use? While I plan on using the deep pocket tool that is sold here, and already own a Waterpik, I was hoping that I could fit in a mid-day swishing on top of the twice daily irrigation.
If thrice daily is safe, where exactly is the cutoff point in this regard? Would it be safe to swish for a few hours in a day, or would this cause damage? Of course, I have no plans to swish for such extended periods of time, but to know if there is a point where damage would be done would allow me to push my oral cleansing regimen to the absolute limit. The faster I can achieve results, the better off I will be by far.
Any answer would be greatly appreciated!
Hi Alan,
There is no limit as to how often you can apply Periogen per day, however three times sounds like a practical limitation. Depending on how large or tenacious your tartar accumulations, it will all come off in a couple of months with twice-a-day use; but I personally understand your enthusiasm. Use Periogen as often as you please; then as you see results, you may slow down a bit. Once you are “better” you may just use a little Periogen once a day to keep the tartar away and establish a new level of periodontal health.
I have been using this product now for about two months and am starting to scale back. I must admit that my oral health has never been better. No bleeding – no visible tartar – mouth feels great.
I have been using Periogen for 1 month now. I saw a difference in just one week, but after one month, my gums are growing back. I was hoping for results when I purchased the package, and am absolutely thrilled. I normally do not leave feedback on products but this one made such a difference, I wanted to share it.
hi cheryl and dick, do you use swishing, or oral irrigator or both methods, and what frequency
thanks plz share
Nihal:
I started out swishing and using my old waterpic – when I started to see positive results I purchased the recommended waterpic from drugstore.com via ebay. I would say that the ultra waterpic is great – much quieter than my old one and certainly more effective.
i am also seeing some great results from swishing and using oral irrigator. my oral health has never been better. thanks a lot doug of globaltonic who is tireless and responds well to his customers.
Re: waterpik ultra i guess you are in the USA
i am in australia so can’t get the ultra pack but doug will get it for me one day.